Masters Of The Cubicles
“Whites would be having the same problems we do if there were fewer of them…” – Carlton
“South Africa and the Carribeans were propped up by imperial regimes that had endless streams of white people with guns and missles who weren’t afraid to use them (or at least gave that illusion that they would).” – Carlton
“As for white unity-I have to insist that it’s an illusion…” – Carlton
You made a statement saying white people would be in the same predicament if they were the minority. That’s simply not the case. It’s not a matter of numbers but a matter of community strength. Contrary to your belief that white people don’t work together, the white people who went to different parts of the world and took over did so because they saw themselves as a community unit against other communities. You said yourself that they were propped up by other white people who gave the illusion that they supported their colonies. But then you say that the support with the illusion of destruction was just an illusion because there is no white unity. Do you think about what you are saying and how it ties into what you have said before when you write or do you just make it up on the fly?
As far as your previous statement claiming that white people are being treated like crap, there are white people being treated like crap every where. Duh! Have you seen Deliverance? You had to go all the way down to Mexico to find them? You have a tendency to take micro examples of issues and try to apply them to the whole. White people are not treated like crap in Mexico. In fact, it has become part and parcel of American culture for many white people to go to Mexico for vacations and spring breaks and to have a roaring good time complete with debauchery. The very idea that Mexico cultivates an atmosphere of treating white people unfairly is laughable. It is not racism that keeps white people from buying land in Mexico. That law is designed to keep any foreigner from buying Mexican land in restricted areas without establishing a real estate trust. Please, get your facts straight. Mexicans of European ancestry do relatively well in Mexico.
“[Are] we going to take a bazooka down to Wall Street; hold an Uzi to the heads of the corporate gods? We are less than 20%. We don’t have the resources of Mother Africa behind us…” – Carlton
Our ancestors didn’t need bazookas or uzis to change the climate of America. Why do you make such absurd rhetorical statements? People like Thurgood Marshall and Doctor King and others were able to make change because they had a strong community effort behind them. Mr. Marshall wasn’t taking orders from anyone. He saw how he could help the black community and did it without any weapon of destruction, not even a sling shot. With a self determining spirit our ancestors were able to stop Jim Crow, erase laws promoting concepts of separate but equal discrimination, and erase laws supporting unfair housing, employment, and education. The very idea that black people need weapons to make change is a concept that ranks right up there with the country of Mexico abusing white people.
“As long as we have people of all colors teaching their children that the motives of people who don’t look like them aren’t pure based purely on history, we will have racial inequality.” – Carlton
So it must be your contention that our perpetual racial disparity and a tolerance for racial discrimination based on a foundation of historic, institutionalized dehumanization of people in the black community has nothing to do with racial inequality. Studying history has no application for how we proceed in the future. It is a wonder why we bother to teach history at all. But then again the problem isn’t the study of history, only the study of black history. The problem isn’t racial discrimination. The problem is actually paying attention to racial discrimination and teaching the black community how to respond to racial discrimination. Teaching black people how to take an active role in the black community isn’t good for the black community. It’s much better to pretend that our racial inequality will go away if we stop looking at it. Nobody says murder will go away if we stop looking at it. Nobody says rape will go away if we stop looking at it. But stop looking at racism and it will magically go away. Brilliant! And our culture has actually taught black people to promote this stick your head in the sand concept to people in the black community. More brilliance. We do it to ourselves.
“Tell me the how you would word one law that will make IBM bend to your will and allow a brother to wear a dashiki and dreads to work if that’s where he is culturally and considers a tailored three piece blasphemy to his soul; the war garment of his would-be prison guards?” – Carlton
Leave it to a black man to minimize the struggle for fairness for black people to black people wearing a dashiki in corporate America. When women say they want fairness in the work place you probably think they want to wear bikinis and housecoats. It’s funny because in the fight for civil rights, I never saw Malcolm X, Doctor King, Thurgood Marshall, Rosa Parks, Medgar Evers, or anyone else from that era wearing a dashiki. In all my years of working in corporate America, I’ve never met one black person that said they wanted to wear a dashiki into the work place. So where did you get the impression that fairness for black people was fairness for the dashiki? Who asked for a law to make the dashiki part of IBM’s corporate culture? May I suggest you direct your query to that person? I’d like to stick to the issue at hand which is fairness for black people and not for the recognition of racist cultural stereotypes.
”The only way that will happen is if we as individuals can convince the guy whose cubicle is next to mine that my interests don’t threaten his and enlist them in our fight.” – Carlton
And when the guy in the cube next to yours has interests that are designed to protect white privilege, you are more than happy to present yourself as a total submissive that is no threat to his or her superiority. That’s how many black people dealt with issues of inequality in the past. Back in the day, a lot of people did well by knowing their place at the plantation owner’s feet and becoming the house slave. They proved that they were no threat to the white privileged way of life and did relatively well compared to other black people. It worked well for some black people then. It works well for some black people today. But it doesn’t help the entire black community.
I don’t have a problem teaching young blacks that they have to become respectful citizens of their local and national communities. I don’t have a problem teaching young blacks to work hard. Lord knows I have to work hard each and every day. Hard work is nothing to shy away from and helps to build character as well as better prepares people for the future.
But all the hard work in the world won’t amount to squat when somebody feels threatened about their interests which may run contrary to fairness for people in the black community. We have to prove that we are no threat to the dominant white community. But the dominant white community doesn’t have to prove jack squat to people in the black community. They don’t have to prove that they are fair. They don’t have to prove that they are inclusive. They don’t have to prove that they care one iota about the black community. And if black people want jobs, they’d better prove that a strong black community is the furthest thing from their mind.
This guy Carlton seems like a walking contradiction. I don’t really think that he bothers to give thought to his comments.
I am supposed to show the white person in the cubicle next to me that I am not a threat. And how do I know they aren’t the threat? I guess since they are white they aren’t the problem. I the black person am. How typical!
It never fails that people who claim to be pro-equality want blacks to do all the work while white people are to be placated with a show of submission. If racism was a black problem then I could understand. But racism is a problem which includes all of us, all communities.
When will we learn? And trust me I agree with you that we are not going to learn by ignoring the past.
Thanks.
1. I am a student of human behavior. My statements all have basis in fact. When I say that the white communities prop each other up, you have to know I meant that the small group of South Africans is part of a larger group of Dutch descendents who have their backs. However, I maintain there is no great white conspiracy on a global scale to keep white Afrikaans in power. As a matter of fact, after Nelson Mandela was imprisoned, it was whites from the tourist trade who (though they enjoyed the resort areas for decades before) began to shut down the area by refusing to be a part of the continued shameful and violent practices of white Afrikaans. Black Afrikaans staged protests that brought attention to the injustice, but it may not have been as powerful (or would have taken much longer) if white journalists around the world did not make these brave and proactive acts known to the rest of the world.
As for the whole Mexico/Racism thing I believe that early white Americans said the same thing about laws THEY passed that just happened to keep minority ethnicities from the sources of power; “we aren’t doing it to harm YOU, we’re just protecting OUR interests.” And yeah, white folks can go down there and have a hell of a party and give up all their ducketts, but so can we do that here. Anybody here ever been to the black side of town on a Friday night? Those kind of trifles are used to distract you from the hand on your throat.
2. I was not using rhetoric. You are taking my statement out of context in an attempt to make it seems exaggerated. I was simply expounding upon the fact that whites who are a minority within a given area hold that power under threat of harm. As a minority group, we would have to do the same; no one is just going to hand you equal power if they haven’t befriended you. Your example of Dr. King and the Honorable Mr. Marshall actually proves my point. They didn’t flip tables or upset the status quo. They got rules changed that were patently unfair and worked within the framework of the residual ones to win favor and respect. In other words, they enlisted the help of whites who they won over with sensible arguments-got the guy next to them to see that parity for black children was progress for us all as a nation.
3. Whew, you made a mighty big leap, there. Why not let my words speak for themselves instead of making far-fetched extrapolations that have nothing to do with what I actually said? I never said I overlook racism. I don’t. In one of my very first posts to you I believe I said something like: “Fight racism wherever you see it, but embrace harmony whenever you can.”
4. Come on now, surely as a man who constantly uses symbols and parables to make his point, you aren’t taking me literally here. You’re smarter than that. The dashiki in my point is a symbol. Corporate culture is not fair or driven by performance or profit, even, to some degree . You fit in and learn to lick boots or you die at a certain level and that applies no matter what clothes you like to wear, the length of your hair, or the color of your skin. Corporate America is the kind of monster you take down from the inside.
5. I think you, too have gotten a little too overwrought with the symbols. You keep depicting that guy in the cubicle next to mine as some sort of racist who will fight to the death to hold down the heads of black children so his little white angels can use their pickaninny scalps as steps to prosperity. I’m not saying those people don’t exist. I’m not even saying that the majority of white people don’t have some sort of malevolence towards black advancement. I’m simply saying that’s best addressed by you and me, the way you made your point in the office that day to the lady who had a knee-jerk reaction to a certain event. You let her know of other possibilities. How many white folks in your office value the opinion of Rev. Sharpton or Jesse Jackson or even Barack Obama over yours? They see those three as having an agenda-to make them prostrate to black “feelings”. But me and you, we are just guys who love our kids same as them and are working stiffs trying to eke out a living that doesn’t depend upon political donations that stop coming if we stop “causing trouble for white folks”. And where do I say that we have to bow and scrape for favors or be submissive? Once again, you’ve taken what I’ve said further than stated by me. That too, is a form of rhetoric.
Finally? I’m just a good southern boy who learned early on from life in the projects that among other nuggets of wisdom handed to me, was one that said: “The best way to help poor people is to not be one of them”. I do a lot of good from my cubicle, and from my daily interactions with children who happen to live in the projects and/or slums. Oh that everyone who disparaged my work would try as hard as I to help black children by inviting them into my heart and home by the score rather than lament for the day when we can make racists bow their collective heads in shame and regret for the way they treat us by foisting some agenda they are just going to accept as the new policy?
By the way, I’m still waiting for you to say that you will never say another negative word about Barack Obama in your part to help him become the next United Black Representative; a title he has ultimately earned.
P.S. To those who find my arguments a little convoluted and contradictory, it’s because things are rarely black and white. There’s mostly gray. Truth is relative.
Only the most conservative among us believe there is only one way to enlightenment. Otherwise, why would we all be so different and yet all be expected to be happy and “successful”.
I love you and there ain’t nothing you can do about it.
Thanks for the feedback Carlton,
You’ve given me more material here for at least a dozen articles! And I still have an article or two in the works from your last comment. Christmas comes year round with you. But I must say that I found your item number four most perplexing and worrisome. The one where you claim, “The dashiki in my point is a symbol.” A symbol of what exactly? Are you trying to make a comparison of black people to corporate America is like a dashiki to business attire? If so then I got your point and I reject your point. I find it insulting and baseless.
Black people in corporate America should not be made to look like some idiosyncrasy in order to make a point, especially by black people who claim to love the black community so much. You won’t hesitate to refer to black people as dashiki wearers but you would never disrespect the white community in this manner. Do you refer to people of European ancestry as trying to get kilts in corporate America or toga wearers. I bet the thought never crossed your mind. But the instant somebody says black people need fair access to opportunities you’ll immediately refer to black people as wanting to change corporate culture so that we can wear dashikis.
A black business person has the same potential for the correct or incorrect attire as any other business person. I wouldn’t allow anyone in my office refer to me as a dashiki wearer. That’s a boot that I’m just not ready to lick. If such a reference is made, I’d have to put somebody in their place and file a report with human resources. I wouldn’t want to fit in an environment that tolerated such contempt for me.
But that’s just me. Other people might be more than happy to accept the slight. One thing about human nature is that it comes in a truly wide variety.
Peace
We were talking about black people so that’s who my reference applies to. If you had mentioned white people or your concerns about how they are faring in the corporate atmosphere, you probably would have gotten a similar symbol from me about that certain segment of white people. I speak in symbols because it is condense and easy to grasp-a holdover from my work with youth. But anybody who reads back is going to see that I’m not shallow enough to actually distill black people into dreadlocked dashiki wearers. Even Stevie Wonder could see what I was trying to do (and he LOVES dashikis). Corny, yes-but at least it was funny to me. Who among us has actually had a dashiki on anyway just to go down and get milk? Well I guess I have, but that’s inconsequential.
But, like I was saying-we haven’t discussed white people. Is that because we have nothing to offer them (like we-myself included-have been wont to say concerning THEIR willingness to take a primary seat in OUR thinktanks)? Or maybe we really do have an agenda for not seeking fairness, but some form of respect mandated by law?
If we WERE talking about white people I would say the same about the tie dye wearing hippies. To be sure most tie dye wearing hippies who might win a job at IBM don’t actually wear tie dye. Most dashiki wearing blacks who would qualify for a job at IBM, don’t actually own a dashiki. Both groups are smart enough to be included in corporate ranks, but they want to do it on their terms on someone else’s turf. Robert Townsend, the Wayans, Spike Lee all wanted to infiltrate Hollywood without playing pimps or other street hustlers first. They had to find their own way. Hollywood and corporate America owe us nothing but we can persuade them to render a lot unto us with the right strategy. Those two things (Hollywood and Corporate Culture) are THEIR creations and we’ve all seen the result when we get a little too invested in their stuff. Chris Gardner (of “Pursuit of Happyness” fame understands that. Once we start in with putting new rules on the book, they will be turned against us-the way HBCU’s are being sued for having too few white professors or black muggers get charged with hate crimes for namecalling white victims while they are jacking them.
I truly do thank you for this forum. I don’t have the time to do my own blogging on a regular basis and this way my youth can see the truth; that we don’t have to be a black monolith to be both black and viable. It’ll make for good discussion.
Carlton,
Well DUH! I was pretty sure you weren’t referring to white people as dashiki wearers. In the umpteen comments you’ve written you’ve never referred to white people as any “symbols”. And the issue isn’t whether or not a black person wears a dashiki. The issue is that you insist of using a “symbol” of black people wanting to wear a dashiki in the corporate environment to show how negatively black people impact white culture. It was probably funny to you, just like many racially derogatory insults tossed at black people are funny to a lot of people.
In the scope of these many comments we’ve touched on the white community several times. You yourself referred to white people when you claimed that they don’t work as a unit or how they don’t go to certain businesses because they don’t like certain hairstyles. You’ve mentioned that black people are trying to impact white people’s culture by getting jobs and such. You referenced white people when you claimed that they’re discriminated against in Mexico because they can’t buy up Mexican land. What do you mean we haven’t talked about white people? In all the mentions you’ve never once mentioned a derogatory reference to white people. You don’t hesitate to “symbolize” black people in corporate America with a dashiki. But now you say if we were talking about white people you’d refer to them as hippies. I wonder why I simply find that hard to believe.
But my point isn’t that you need to make uncalled for references to white people in order to give the impression that you are an equal opportunity insulter. The point is that you easily move to defend white people and protect their interest almost as easily as you would toss a derogatory reference to black people in corporate America.
Peace
I’m protecting the interests of all people. If it seems as if I am moving to protect the interests of white people too much that’s because some people among us are too quick to unnecessarily group and attack them. And that’s not in our best interest. You can call somebody out without destroying your potential to develop a working relationship with them. We do it with each other all the time. Why do I need to treat white people any differently than I do you? I probably WILL treat you differently, though, because I am human.
Here’s hoping that righteous indignation gets us as far as you’re betting it will. After all, it’s only the future of the black race we’re betting on here. Let’s see-what’s worked best before for people you have to work with every day…working closely to hash out differences and being honest and respectful about what you think or need, or all out war and working from a presumption of suspicion and mutual hate? If all out war was a way to sustained peace, we wouldn’t still be having wars, would we, after all the thousands of years of man being on earth and fighting. I’ll end this with something I tell my own kids-”You make your own choices about what insults you.” It may help to realize that sometimes we choose to be insulted because to be otherwise means we have to be held responsible for some of the ways we choose to react. If there’s one thing I want you and other people who find me insulting and not angry enough to understand is that it comes back to you as an individual…always. No matter how strong your movement, we are only as stong as our weakest player. Are you gonna be empowered or insulted? One demands positive change within the holder of said emotion. The other demands a lot less of the individual and has mixed results for that person holding the emotion. Or maybe you depend upon my insults and and those of white people to sustain your momentum? MLK’s quiet inclusion and resistance beat out militant anger in the 60’s (though they both had their place). I’m just hoping it will again. It’s a good foundation for my grandchildrens’ future lives among white folks-cause they ain’t going nowhere.
Carlton,
So I take it you don’t believe that the interest of the black community are under attack. Dude, you’re the gift that keeps on giving. You think white people are unfairly attacked by black people! You think peace is having only one side attacking the other. You think it is peaceful to allow the dominant community to leave the black community behind and black people demanding equal opportunity is war. This is what happens when we fail to look back and study our history.
One of the most peaceful men of history was Doctor King. We’ve been taught that ever since he was murdered by white people. But Mr. King worked fervently, fighting for equal rights for black people. Now, we could extrapolate from what you’ve written here and elsewhere that black people fighting for equal rights are declaring war on white people. We are not entitled to equal opportunity so therefore the only way we can get it is by picking up arms and infringing on white culture.
Again, the things you say are thick with concessions to the white way of life and disregard for black people. The demand for equality is not war. In fact, when black people were peacefully demonstrating for equal treatment and our civil rights it was the white community that responded with unmuzzled dogs, water hoses, baton wielding stormtroopers, lynchings, cross burnings, false arrests, and all forms of government sponsored intimidation that have formed the foundation of our race relations to this day. White people, and obviously many black people who are in a position to teach black youth, believe that black people are an inconvenience.
I hope your grandchildren enjoy their future among white people. It’s pretty obvious you have no intention of teaching them anything about the black community other than black people need to win white people over by proving that black people have no interest in the black community. I never thought you would teach your children to live among black people. Thanks to people like you the white community will have all the people moving to protect their interest that they need. They aren’t going anywhere and they won’t have any reason to do so. Too bad more people don’t move to protect the black community’s interest.
Peace
“So I take it…”
Those four words kill your argument every time. You openly appear to not like my approach to things, so you make a lot of unfounded statements, fill in the holes about me and assume the worst. Is that because you can’t pick apart my actual argument that white people need to be respected if we want their respect? Or that some black people need to change their approach to their individual lives?
More and more of your points are about me. My points, conversely, are counterpoint to your actual point or show where our points actually agree. I have made no disparaging remarks about you or made any assumptions about your life. Don’t you see that because you don’t actually know me that people will never respect your arguments because your arguments are about me when you get frustrated with my approach to things and don’t address my actual arguments? But that’s fine. Like I said a couple of weeks ago, take out every black person who doesn’t 100% agree with you-maybe there will be one or two left at the end of your war with your own people to help in your movement. In the meantime, I’ll be helping blacks succeed on their own merits and pointing out injustice when I see that too. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. This abstract called “equality” in and of itself will never stop that 15 year old from getting pregnant and making things harder for herself and her child before her life has even begun hardly. And that’s true no matter what color the teenager. Can’t you see that to help that one girl love herself and make better decisions is an amazing help to our race? If she’s a happy soldier, she’s a help. If she’s got three babies and three baby daddies by the time she’s 21, chances are she isn’t. And because I have such a big heart, I spend time trying to get her up to speed and rescuing her babies from her missteps so they will be an uplift to the race too. But she and those babies are my priority because by the time we “fix” inequality-she may not be here for me to go back for and her babies may be in foster care or with some overwhelmed relative. I see it all the time.
Carlton,
My apologies. Let me see if I can resuscitate my argument. I really don’t think we should be quibbling over four words but if that’s what it takes for you to open your eyes, I’ll oblige…
You don’t believe that the interest of the black community are under attack…
Did that work for you?
Well that would be the proper way to retort statements such as, “I am moving to protect the interests of white people…” Would it be better if I responded to you as the third person? It’ll be kind of awkward for a dialogue. But again I’ll oblige…
Carlton thinks that since I don’t know him, I shouldn’t respond to the statements he makes about how the white community is under attack and he feels he must champion their interest. As a black man, Carlton doesn’t see the problems of the black community but feels obligated to defend the white community.
For example, in a previous comment, Carlton said that the Mexico treats white people like crap because the country refuses to let foreigners purchase land at will. Carlton felt so strongly about this not because it is an inconvenience for foreigners but an inconvenience for white foreigners. White foreigners are the ones being treated like crap. And let’s not forget that the reason Carlton opened this dialogue, or what remains of it, was to come and defend a white woman who made a comment to my article titled, White Woman Married To A Black Man.
Now the type of thinking typified by Carlton indicates someone who is very sensitive to the white community to the point that he considers black people in the work place an inconvenience to white culture. And yet, he maintains an illusion that he is somehow concerned about the black community.
There is no affiliation to the black community here. But there is a very close affiliation to the white community. Carlton believes he is doing the black community well by doing his part to instill young black people with this type of thinking. Carlton has said before that he does not care for working within the black community. It’s too difficult for him to fathom working with black people. But white people? That’s a different story altogether.
Do we truly have to wonder why there is no unity in the black community when this is the type of thinking that many black people take and try to pass along to the future of the black community? Back in the day we had unity. These days, too many black people want to protect the interest of the white community.
Peace
I guess I don’t get Carlton’s arguments at all. Carlton you say that it seems you are too quick to protect the interest of whites because some are too quick to attack them. Who exactly has been attacking white people?
And don’t white people have plenty of protection without you! You claim that there is no white conspiracy yet espouse on the fact that white people work together so much that they can cow a majority into being subjected to cruel racism.
Why is the fact of white people working as a group a conspiracy? Was it a conspiracy when MLK Jr. was able to get a majority of black people to work together and fight racism? Your arguments make no sense. It is obvious that white people work for white people more so than any other community.
Open your eyes! If white people weren’t working together wouldn’t it be easier to rid our country of white privilege and racism. You can’t have it both ways. Either they ARE working together as a group and continue to overlook racism while engaging fully in white privilege. Or their group isn’t working together and racism and white privilege is all in our heads.
You sit and talk about how you see racism and we need to fight it at every turn. But if you are so quick to protect those who are the source of that racism, then how exactly are you fighting it? With closed eyes? Just wondering.
Also, you use analogies like dashiki’s and talk about if we were talking about white people’s concerns in the professional workplace you would have used an analogy for them. What!?! What problems exactly would we be talking about with whites in the professional workplace?
Because the last time I checked they were very well or may I say over represented in the office. So why in the hell would anyone need to discuss them in the workplace. Your analogy is pathetic. Dashiki’s are out of place in the workplace and you know it. Black people ARE NOT!
And if that is the best analogy you could come up with then I think we both know exactly why you are too quick to protect white people. And as far as befriending those to get what you want is purely a crock of you know what. White people hated MLK Jr. They may talk stuff now about how great he is/was.
But when he was alive he was an uppity negro who was making waves NOT friends. That is the truth of the matter. How can you believe that trying to fight racism will win you friends. The operative word is fight. Fighting racism is a battle and if all white people wanted to be our friends we wouldn’t have to fight to show them racism.
Wouldn’t it be that easy if we could just befriend everyone and racism just floats away. Oh how nice it must be in fantasy land!
Thanks.
Thanks for the feedback theblacksentinel,
So I take it you don’t particularly care for Carlton’s rhetorical rhetoric either. Ooops! There goes my argument!
The fantasy that you and I hold dear is that one day racism will truly be a thing of the past. Other people’s idea of fantasy is to pretend that the dominant community is under siege so that they can run to the dominant community’s rescue.
Peace
Once again, not one argument against me actually accurately quotes something I said directly. No wonder our dialogue with whites is lagging; we can’t even come to some understanding of where another black man is coming from. And now we have the fantasy being painted that diminishes the role of white Americans in getting civil rights laws overturned.
I have no fantasy about the entrenchment of racism in this country; hell, I live in the South. But let me tell you what else I see: me giving props and apologizing when I step on toes unintentionally and giving up points that aren’t totally verifiable. Then I see responses that attack personally (despite a lack of knowledge concerning the subject of said attacks) and people that won’t give you respect for any point well made. Either you guys are very lucky to have never made an exaggerated or incorrect statement in the two weeks of this discourse or I stand in the presence of the human personifications of God. Please be so nice as to tell the rest of us which situation exists so we can either have you buy lottery tickets for us (so the luck might rub off) or prepare a prayer (in tribute to your omniscience). Just being silly guys….
But, in reality, I’ve had a full week in service to black people. Moved a young man, aged 19, off the streets into his own apartment after helping him find a job and a better support system than the local ruffnecks. Found a job for a college student about to be kicked out and forced from school due to his finances. Found counseling for a young lady who finally admitted she was contemplating suicide. Got another young man (former delinquent)an interview with the police force. Talked a runaway into going back home and finishing high school with a promise he could move in with me if he would go to college and we couldn’t find another way for him to afford it. Let a young lady practice driving, then use my truck to get her license…and it ain’t even Friday yet. Half of that stuff came to fruition because of white friends I’ve made in business and life both. A friend of mine is a friend of theirs unless the kid proves otherwise. That’s why I say you have to know me to criticize me well, and that you should keep the criticisms to actual quotes I’ve made (unlike the way you reworded my “If it seems as if I am moving to protect the interests of white people too much that’s because some people among us are too quick to unnecessarily group and attack them.” into “I am moving to protect the interests of white people…”. That’s shameless and ungentlemanly.
Oh well, I guess I can’t send my youth here now. I don’t want them to see themselves as chips in some petty argument. They mean much more than that to me…they are my hope for the race-higher on my list than kicking some out of touch white guy in the pants so he knows my position and will MAYBE support some kind of change…talk about your fantasies!
Carlton,
Okay, I think I see where we are having our disconnect. I think we have two distinct differences on reality. You’ll say something off the wall like…
Once I reveal the lack of thought of a statement like this you won’t hesitate to change your rhetoric to something like…
So I can only assume that you realized that your first statement held as much logic as a marshmallow and you quickly tried to back peddle and amend it as if that could actually help strengthen your weak position. You do this throughout our exchange. But what I really find interesting is your penchant to refuse working with the black community and your full embrace in the defense of the racially generic dominant community that is predominantly white. Here’s another one from the best of Carlton…
And then you’ll follow up that comment with this one…
Now you’ll swear up and down that other people are calling you names and calling you a race traitor. But in your own words you have made the decision to help support the dominant community because you feel that they are unnecessarily grouped and attacked. You’ll describe black people in corporate America as infringing on white culture, so you have to become the champion of white people and defend their interest because black people demanding jobs will unfairly group and attack white people.
And then you’ll cap all of this off with the comment…
Okay, I’ll agree with you. Not one argument against you accurately quotes something you said directly. I think I have five here in this comment alone.
Show me where I’ve manipulated anything you’ve said and I’ll include a disclaimer with an apology. It’s the least I can do. But if it’s in quotes, I am pretty sure you said it. It would help if you claimed it. The truth would set you free. But since you’ve been waffling with everything you’ve said from your first comment, I really don’t expect you to start owning up to what you’ve said now. Unfortunately, I expect our dialogue to continue to lag.
Peace
How many times have I talked about all the black organizations I work with and even help administrate and you still try to paint me as not affiliated with the black race? Either you chose to ignore the statements of the work I do or you just leave it out so people THINK your statements have actual merit. I don’t want to work with some National Black Organization because I don’t see blackness as some sort of monolith. White people are already too quick to do that to us, I refuse to be a part of a group helping to herd us into one lump. I’m not fighting the efforts of those who are trying to move towards oneness, I’ve just got my own way of helping us get where we would like to be and I refuse to sit around crying about the lack of black community while our race falls away person by person. To paraphrase the cliche’; if I only save twenty starfish on the beach when there are thousands drying out in the sun, those twenty will be thankful and will maybe help twenty more apiece when they can.
My problem isn’t the stuff you put in quotes-I stand behind everything I say. The problem is with the exagrations you make afterwards; twisting my words to try and make me seem as if I hate black people and am actively working to bring down the race.
Carlton,
Simply saying that you work with black organizations doesn’t mean that you are exempt from criticism for your negative contributions to the black community. It’s wonderful that you do what you do to benefit the black community. But the work that you may or may not do does not negate the fact that you really do have some serious misconceptions about race relations that negatively impact the black community. Besides, if you wanted approval for what you do I thought that those phone calls from all the people that you’ve helped over the years was more than enough to stroke your ego. You said yourself,
Now that that’s out of the way…
Well join the club! The pun was totally intended. I don’t belong to any black organization either. DUH! I don’t even attend a black church. I don’t even have a black faith to anchor me to the conventional thinking of the black community. But make no mistake I am committed to being a strong member of the black community. I don’t have to spend my time defending white interests from black people. There are already plenty of people around to do that already. People like you who feel that white people are unfairly treated despite the fact that black people suffer with higher unemployment and higher rejection for employment opportunities. You said it yourself,
Now I have to wonder, why do you consider the effort to confront racism as furthering chasms but are ready to accept the fact that corporate America reject resumes that sound too ethnic? Is not the rejection of the resumes itself the act that has damaged racial relationships? And then you’ll write,
Has not the black community already been attacked by the outright rejection based on nothing but our names? And you are willing to tolerate this racism, but black people who defend the black community by pointing out this discrimination are the ones you say are furthering chasms. This is very indicative of your black assimilation thinking process.
You have no choice but to stand behind what you have said. You said it! And the so called exaggerations are nothing but the practical application of the thinking behind your words. Black people attacking aspects of racism builds chasms, but the racism that initiated a response from the black community does not.
And lastly, you are accusing me of accusing you of hatred of the black community. This is similar to your accusations that I was calling you a hypocrite or that I was calling you names. Show me where I said you hate the black community and I’ll apologize for it. Until then, I have no clue what you’re referring to.
Peace
Brotherpeacemaker,
I’m surprised that you still even bother with Carlton.
Thanks for the feedback Dark Frosty,
This is what I wrote to Shabazz and theblacksentinel when I was asked the same thing on my post Black People Infringing On White Culture:
But Carlton represents a large segment of the black community that wants to endear themselves to the dominant community. Carlton claims that he wants to help the black community. But the way he wants to help is to distract young black people from looking at the big picture and focus only on what is good for them and not what is good for the entire black community. Carlton claims he is instrumental in teaching young people how to deal with our environment of racial disparity and that he wants to use this forum as a means to teach these people. If that’s the case, then these young people need to see what Carlton is from a more enlightened perspective. Yes, its easy to get ahead if you have no social conscious. Corporate America does well not because it looks out for the public’s interest but because corporate America looks out for corporate America’s interest. Black people can do well if they don’t look out for the black community’s interest but look to do well for their own interest. And what better way to get ahead than to get a job in corporate America. And what better way to get ahead in corporate America than to prove you have absolutely no affiliation with the black community. Black people who protect white people’s interest do well in America. Carlton represents what can happen if we are not careful. We need to wake up and call this kind of thinking out. Ignore it and it will continue to foster. Yes it takes a lot of time and effort, but that’s part of the black community struggle. I think the black community is worth me spending the time to talk to the likes of Carlton.
Peace
I don’t agree with all of your opinions, brotherpeacemaker, but I truly admire your willingness to remain in conversation with someone you disagree with as strongly as Carlton. Especially since he obviously means well, and just honestly doesn’t see things the way that you do. You might change his mind, at least a little, or you might influence someone else who’s listening. Either way, we all win.
Thanks for the feedback James,
I’m sure the vast majority of the people who frequent my blog disagree with me at some level or another. But that’s cool because I think we all share the common goal of bettering the black community. I’m not sure somebody like Carlton really wants what’s best for the black community. I believe people of Carlton’s ilk want what’s best for their selves despite the social ramifications that may be involved. While he may think he has the future of the black community at heart, I do believe his main goal is to justify his assimilation.
Peace
I suspect that Carlton probably doesn’t, at heart, see his identity exclusively in terms of race, or think of himself as exclusively a member of “the black community.” At least this is how I interpret some of his comments, and his responses to you.
This is why I’m not sure that he doesn’t want what’s best for the black community, as he understands what that means. I think it may mean only that he and you see the interests of the black community differently. Just as where you see “assimilation,” and believe that to be wrong, he may see himself in many ways — American, black, male, etc. — and perhaps not believe that he’s a member of one community to the exclusion of the others. In other words, that he may see whites as his people too, and that most of his identities include people of all races; just as being male doesn’t mean that he sees women (or black women) as other people with whom he has nothing in common and for whom he has no responsibility.
Of course, I may be assuming a lot. But this is precisely why I think these kinds of conversations are so helpful to all of us, and why I think your patient willingness to listen and respond, again and again, does so much good.
James,
It is precisely because some black people put such importance on being a member of the racially generic but predominantly white dominant community that prevents many from wanting to make any significant changes to the racial disparity of the status quo. You see this type of behavior a lot with black celebrities. Before fame and fortune many black celebrities embrace their blackness. But once success comes, black celebrities will be more than happy to leave the struggle to others who may continue to care. Successful black people are quick to move to the ‘burbs among their new peers. It’s one of the reasons success is rarely associated with the traditional black community.
Pointing out racial discrimination and working towards its elimination should not be considered as working towards the exclusion of one community or another. The racial discrimination has already excluded somebody. Pointing out discrimination and facing it head on is actually helpful towards mending community fences. To remain neutral or on the sidelines when there is a struggle between the weak and the powerful, the overall effect is to side with the stronger.
Peace
I absolutely agree with your points about combating racial discrimination. Including that it needn’t have anything to do with working towards the exclusion of any community.
I hope that Carlton isn’t, in fact, placing so much importance on being a member of the broader community that he’s accepting the racial status quo in order to better “fit in.” But even if he isn’t as interested in challenging that status quo as you or I would like (and I’m trying to take him at his word on that), I know a lot of people for whom that’s true, and for whom it’s not necessarily about feeling that they can’t fit in without quietly accepting racial injustice. Whether it’s a celebrity or an ordinary person, it *can* simply be about other priorities, including other types of injustice or other causes.
Do we blame a white person for not speaking out and challenging the status quo on race? Yes, absolutely we do. Do we blame a white person for speaking out strongly, but for not making racial justice the centerpiece of his or her life? Not in my experience. Is Carlton doing any less? I don’t think so, at least not if we take him at his word (which I think is important to do, so that we don’t stereotype people just because we’ve seen certain patterns before and suspect we know what’s going on).
I hope that makes sense, even if it may not be quite how you see things.
James,
Actually, I have to disagree with you. It is rather rare to hear white people talk about racial discrimination. And we do not hold their feet to the fire. When Dog the Bounty Hunter was revealed to be a stone cold racist, many black and white people moved to protect him. So many people were out there saying he’s such a good guy. The same thing happened with Don Imus. Yes he was temporarily fired. But he’s back on the air with the same old respect for racial disparity. And politicians who wear their disparity on the sleeve is truly a long list. But all of that comes and goes without much of a peep most of the time.
If Carlton was simply not working to make racial justice the centerpiece of of his life that would be one thing. But from what I have read of his comments, here and in other articles, Carlton is actually promoting the idea that the black community is helpless against racial discrimination. Instead of trying to infringe on white people’s right to exclude black people, black people should be working to ingratiate ourselves to white people by proving that we are no threat to white people’s interests. You really need to read more of his comments. Click here and read the comments.
Besides, if Carlton was simply keeping quiet about racial injustice, how did this debate get started in the first place?
Peace
That’s interesting. I guess I may hear white people talking seriously about racial discrimination more often than you do. (It’s something of an occupational hazard for me these days.)
I agree, though, that we don’t hold white people’s feet to the fire anywhere near as often as we should; that was basically my point, since I was saying I don’t think anyone expects from white people what it seemed you were asking of Carlton. I think your examples of Dog and Imus are well chosen, as they show both how far we’ve come in just 10 or 20 years, and how much further we have to go.
I guess I just wasn’t reading his comments quite that way, although I realize you do. I didn’t see him as trying to ingratiate himself with whites at all, for instance, but as trying hard not to paint whites unfairly, just because white society as a whole has been, and continues to be, the source of such massive racial injustice. You may be reading him better than I am, of course; that’s just how I kept reading him.
James,
Read all of Carlton’s comments. Read all of the dialogues. Then tell me what you think.
Peace